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Ian Spelling
NYT Syndicate
Willem Dafoe has breathed life into mad-dog characters for years, so it's about time that he played a character actually called Mad Dog.
He does exactly that in Dog Eat Dog, an outlandish and wildly entertaining concoction from director Paul Schrader. It's the actor's seventh collaboration with Schrader, who directed him in Light Sleeper (1992), Affliction (1997), Auto Focus (2002), The Walker (2007) and Adam Resurrected (2008), after having written Martin Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ (1988), which cast Dafoe as Jesus.
Mad Dog, a bonkers chatterbox, reunites with criminal pals Troy (Nicolas Cage) and Diesel (Christopher Matthew Cook), respectively the brains and the muscle of the operation, for a high-risk, high-pay baby kidnapping that goes awry. The film will open in theatres in Los Angeles and New York on November 4, with theatrical expansion and a VOD/digital HD release on November 11.
Dafoe, always an engaging, honest and eclectic interview subject, spoke about Dog Eat Dog, upcoming projects and his career during a recent cellphone telephone conversation from the vestibule of his Manhattan apartment. Excerpts:
Q: How does it work with you and Schrader? Does he call you and say"Let's go?" Or do you discuss the script and character before signing on?
WILLEM DAFOE: Oh, I think he says,"Hey Willem, I'm doing this. This is what I'd like you to do. Are you with me? Do you want to do it?"
And that's that.
How did that trust evolve?
I've had some good experiences with Paul. I've had some principal roles with him, some supporting roles and even a cameo. It's always been interesting. So the only question, when he presents something to me, is if I think I'm the right guy.
He told me about his next movie and said,"You don't want to play this, do you?" When he told me what it was, it didn't sound like something I could do much with, and so I won't be joining him on his next one.
So it's not an automatic, but I'm always interested in what Paul's doing and, if he gives me something that's mutually interesting and has possibilities, then I'm there.
What intrigued you about Mad Dog?
The main thing is that there's a huge contradiction in the character. He's so brutal and he's done some brutal things, but at the same time he's very insecure, very needy, very sweet, very vulnerable, and basically is just looking for love. That's a strange combination.
Now, mind you, it's all filtered through a haze because he's getting high, in every way imaginable, whenever he can.
Those are all things that play on my imagination, and how to reconcile those things without it being cloying or there being a justification, there's some point to that psychologically and a challenge to make it credible.
You worked with Nic Cage on Wild at Heart (1990). How did you enjoy reuniting with him?
I had a really good time with Nic in Wild at Heart, and he's an actor who always brings something interesting to a shoot. He's inventive. He loves to push everyone involved. He loves cinema, he loves what he does, and he's a good partner in a scene.
All those things are attractive. And it wasn't just me and Nic, but also Chris Cook. We had a good little trio.
How down and dirty was this? It looks like it was done low-budget and fast, which must be an exciting way to shoot.
It is. Not all movies should be fought like that ... shot like that, I mean. That's funny,"not all movies should be fought," it's like they're doing a war.
But no, not all movies should be shot like that. This one, I think it was different on several levels. It was done quickly, out of necessity, and you can feel that energy. I think it worked for Dog Eat Dog.
So much of this film relies on the editing and music. Could you get a sense of what you were making when you were making it?
I always do the same thing, which is I play the scenes for me and try to create moments for the director, my fellow actors, the people who score the movies and the people that cut them. I try to give them what they need so that they can do their jobs.
I don't like to get too far ahead of myself, because, if I'm thinking about what it will look like, then I'm not in the moment.
It's a practical thing to me. I like to use intuition. If you know exactly what it is, or what it's going to be, it's not that interesting, because then it just becomes an exercise of craft. I think performance should be something more than that. That can be part of it, but it should be more than that.
There should be more freefall involved.
What was it like to see Dog Eat Dog put together, given that, to borrow your description, this feels like it's a freefall?
Paul worked really hard. His collaborators were young. It was a first solo credit for a lot of people. So there was no self-consciousness. This was driven by necessity.
When it came together, I can't say I was surprised. It hangs together. It's strange, it's stylish, but it's not too warped. It's warped, but not too warped in the sense of being overly conscious of itself and knowing what its effect is.
Throughout your career, you've collaborated with several directors several times, Paul Schrader but also Wes Anderson, Abel Ferrara and Lars Von Trier. What are the advantages of such familiarity?
You can go deeper because you're not establishing a relationship. You trust them. You're more relaxed. You know they'll protect you and you can stick your neck out a little more.
You can enjoy the pleasure of knowing their language and pushing them to a new place. If you push them and they push back and you push them, before you know it, you've got something going on.
Sometimes the relationship between actors and directors is too polite, too coded. It's not direct, not hands-on enough. If you know someone you can really roll up your sleeves with, then you can collaborate and not just do another role. You can be a little looser, a little less rigid.
Any disadvantages? Can you get too familiar?
I suppose you could, but I think there's usually enough going on between films, and each project is different enough, that I don't think, for me, that becomes a problem.
It could be a problem if they are using you in the same way every time. But, I'll tell you, that's where that question of whether it's automatic comes in. If a director I've worked with before wants me to do the same thing, I won't automatically do it. I've got to read it and talk to the director to see if it makes sense for both of us.
You've done many unusual and daring indie films. You keep making indies. You're committed to them ...
I am. I only do what interests me. I'm all for different kinds of films and filmmaking, and for some risky filmmaking.
Sometimes it's nice to do a film that's conscious of its audience and trying to be something specific, but sometimes films lack a certain personal context. So I find that, sometimes, you've got to go to the outskirts, outside the industry, to get that authentic expression that's necessary to push the industry to challenge themselves. And they get that way because they're too weighed down with responsibilities. They have financial responsibilities and responsibilities to a huge audience.
To that point, you have done your share of big movies ...
I have.
How do you choose which to do? You're not a"One for me, one for them" actor.
It's true. One of the beauties of doing something like Spider-Man (2002) was, even though it was a big movie and had pressure to deliver a certain kind of thing and was very much a studio movie, I still felt that director-driven quality, believe it or not, in Sam Raimi.
I look for people who are burning to make their film, big or small. I look for people who have a purpose, who are motivated, who aren't doing it for their career, but for some deep, personal reason.
Those are the people you want to be around, because it's catching. You learn things, the stakes are higher and you feel better about the work when people are committed on that level.
My fantasy is that I'm an actor that doesn't feel like an actor. This is my ambition, to not be an actor that everyone says"Oh, what a great actor he is," but to be an actor where people say,"Where'd they get that guy?" It's about passion.
You have seven films wrapped, including Padre, The Great Wall, The Florida Project and Justice League. Is a movie set oxygen to you? Do you feel most alive on a set?
I do. Yes. I like to disappear into an action and I like to disappear into a very specific situation, a very specific world ” and you can do that on a set.
It doesn't feel narcissistic or like therapy because you're working with a group of people trying to make something, something that's going to change how we think or how we feel, and that's exciting.
I think that's not a bad way to live.
